By Robin Latchem, Online Journalist (English)

England's rugby players return to Britain after four days of national sporting failure.

Their defeat in the World Cup final was sandwiched by the footballers' loss in the European Championships and Lewis Hamilton being pipped at the post for the F1 crown.

So - are the English always fated to come second when it really matters?

I write "the English" as an Englishman who saw the one big exception: the football World Cup triumph in 1966 (well, as a child in a packed Wembley stadium during a group match I didn't SEE that much.)

So we do win things - the previous rugby World Cup, some cricket series and occasional gold medals at the Olympics. And sailing, rowing etc.

But I recently heard an Australian point out we seem to treat victory as a pinnacle of achievement. Aussies, he said, would view it merely as a base camp to prepare for future glories.

Difficult to argue with that when you compare the glorious Ashes victory of 2005 and the cricketers' capitulation 18 months later.

Mind you, there's something useful about being English - we can trot out homilies such as: "It's the taking part that matters".

Trouble is, do we really believe that?

(Disclaimer: For the rest of Britain, this is not intended to reflect Welsh, Scottish or Irish sports fans who would never want to come second... to the English.)

Comments

[reduceco2 1 Nov 2007 17:42:46]

I blame the climate - as a Bok supporter living in UK, I can see the difference in the level of outdoor pursuit between RSA and UK (this no doubt covers the Aussie cliamte too. Cricket at all levels is far more affected by weather here and as a result less practice and experienced gained. This applies to most other sports - as for football I am unable to claim any idea of why England are so bad, but maybe their players are so overpaid there is no hunger for achievement.

[Jane Lancs 26 Oct 2007 00:05:29]

Did you know that we as a country own a whole host of Archery World Records. Nope thought not. But we do.

I can verify this if needed check out the F.I.T.A. (Federation International Tir A L'arc) web site they are the governing body of archery in Europe. Look under flight records!!!

Shame for Lewis though :(

[Makhecha 24 Oct 2007 09:28:48]

English this English that!!..why do we keep hearing about the English!! what are they some supreme race in the world???....may English should stop talking and whinging and start concentrating on winning!

[Brian -Motherwell 23 Oct 2007 15:54:33]

Why is it always assumed that England shoule be among the winners? The media create the potntial for disappointment at every turn by promoting the belief that the teams are better than they really are. Also, why are 'British' sportsmen and women claimed by the English, eg Lewis Hamilton? This all-too-common arrogance makes other nations hate the English. The media should get real. The results show they are not the best. On the plus side, the English rugby team were exemplary in their defeat: no moaning or excuses -unlike the media. They are the only winners here.

[Robert, Dublin 23 Oct 2007 13:59:52]

Every sports team goes through bad patches. I do not think you should be too critical of England's performance in the rugby world cup final. They played extremely well. The victory by South Africa was hard won. Given that England had been written off by many long before the final what they achieved is nothing short of amazing.

English rugby will have its day again.

[Sanele, Durban 23 Oct 2007 08:53:02]

England lost the World Cup because South Africa is a better team. It is very childish to argue over what could have been. Had the try been given, England would have still lost. What you should be proud of is that despite being thrashed 36-0 the team put a remarkable come back against the best team in the world right now.

[Naomi London 22 Oct 2007 17:03:28]

Bad luck was all. No conspiracies, no non-belief, just rotten bad luck, ok couldve played better Wednesday, but bigger teams also fall, we played well saturday, the score says that, and Hamilton had to deal with an gearbox failure otherwise its mostly 99% sure he would have won, just rotten bad luck!!!

[Sue Kent England 22 Oct 2007 17:01:04]

Despite losing the rugby, the F1 and football I would like to take this opportunity to say that I am extremely proud to be English this weekend. Despite out rugby team being called old men and that they were a disgrace to a world cup tournament and Lewis Hamislton being told that it was unthinkable for a driver to win in his rookie year each of these men put every thing they are onto the line and gave their all for their sport. Well done one and all.

[Alan, Germany 22 Oct 2007 16:09:00]

I thought that our rugby team played "out of their skins" in the final, but were beaten by a better team who defended brilliantly and never conceded the penalties which just might have given us a chance from JWs boot.
As for Lewis Hamilton;that must have been hard for the young man, but he has shown his ability and will be a world champion sooner rather than later.
These performances, and the committment shown,contrast dramatically with the pathetic attitude of the so-called "stars" of the England football team throughout the European Championship qualiying tournament.
Perhaps watching the tournament next year from home will inject some pride in performance.

[Adam Sharland 22 Oct 2007 15:41:06]

COME ON ENGLAND!!!! We have to be proud that we defended our title with honour, even though we lost to the south africans who i have to say should not be proud of the way they played. Mclaren are at faulty for lewis' car breaking down in the grand prix and should hold their hands up. even after his slip-up lewis' still had every chance to keep going. We should be proud of the way we competed in al the competitions and keep supporting both lewis and the England Rugby squad. We WILL bounce back from this and return stronger in the grand prix next year and even stronger in 2011 Rugby World cup. I would like to add that the ref disallowing the try should own up and be ashamed of himself. COME ON ENGLAND!!!

['Yomi, Lagos Nigeria 22 Oct 2007 14:45:39]

Can Sky explain why Jon Desborough seemed to take personal delight in Lewis Hamilton's misfortune? Did anyone else notice how he seemed to gloat over the result - to the point where the Sky news editor took his visual off the screen when he bent over double laughing about MacLaren's victory party that never was? Apart from the fact that this was totally ot of sync with the naional mood, it was unprofessional to say the least. Very intersted to learn what Sky news made of it.

[emily, cape town, south africa 22 Oct 2007 14:25:06]

England did well to get as far as they did and they played well in the final. However, they weren't exactly inspiring world champions over the last 4 years. HIER KOM DIE BOKKE!!

[Jem, Freetown 22 Oct 2007 13:57:55]

I think England did much better than anyone expected. I think you should be very proud of their achievement given that they were expected to fail in their first knockout match.

I hope that I won't be hearing about a try that wasn't for the next 4 years.

Sky, rather foolishly, continue to display photographic evidence that Cueto's foot was in play at a point when Cueto was about a foot from the ground. It does not show where his foot was when the ball was grounded. Given that the margin was 9 points, the controversy is academic.

Well done England and well done Boks!

[Melissa South Africa 22 Oct 2007 13:49:02]

The match was never going to be easy and England put in a spirited performance. Well done to South Africa for coming out tops! We had a date with destiny.

[Alan MacKenzie 22 Oct 2007 13:32:04]

Come on lads get over it.

As I Scot I am used to my team getting beaten, but at least the Scots don't go on and on and on about what might have been. The facts are simple - even with the try and a (difficult) conversion, England would still not have won. And don't get me started on the biased commentary on ITV. "...they (The Argentinians) are PROBABLY worthy winners" !!
They did after all thrash the English in the previous game -and score many more tries (the point of the game), so how come they are only PROBABLY worthy winners. Grow up you lot and deal with it - you were beaten by the better team ... in both matches.

[steph 22 Oct 2007 13:17:41]

Why does England always lose?........ perhaps its because winning takes belief in yourself first, your team, your supporters and ultimately the government and the Queen of our country... there is so little to be proud of so belief stops at the supporters..

This government has caused this disbelief with the exposure of the rot within, with an illegal war, spun and generated with lies and deceit, led by a 'Christian' Labour prime minister and his government, breaking of promises, 24 hour gambling, rampant consumerism, 24 hour drinking, filthy hospitals, children who can't read, obese lazy people (haven't ever seen a fat immigrant? have you?), girls getting pregnant because baby = council house, no belief in marriage amongst the young because they lived through the divorces of their own parents, damaged people who are ground down with the hardest work ethic, at least amongst the high earners, no time to play with their kids, not allowed to win at schools with no sports facilities - (we are holding the Olympics at inordinate costs, but who is going to use these facilities afterwards? The young sportmens and women will have to learn to read the signs first or they wont get to the stadiums).

Restoring national pride for England I fear is receding ever further, especially when we become more and more submerged in the suffocating blanket of Europe.

We don't win because we are deeply ashamed of what has been done in our name over the past ten years by liars and 'war criminals' - so we really do as a nation, have nothing to be proud of.. How can we expect our sportmen to dig that bit deeper like the Boks do? - South Africa is a nation to be proud of, despite their troubles (generated too I might add by the desertion of the British and the application of sanctions which only served to hurt the most vulnerable). When Mbeki was held aloft, golden cup in hand, supported by the likes of Habana and Montgomery, multicultural, struggling and suffering South Africa deserves to feel very proud indeed.

[Sharon Johannesburg South Africa 22 Oct 2007 12:50:43]

At least Princes William and Harry looked as though they were "involved" in the game. I think our PR people let our President down - he looked as though he was a lonely soul in the stands instead of being surrounded by a posse of bodyguards in Springbok colours enjoying seeing his boys play a great game and win.

[jonathan ,south-africa 22 Oct 2007 12:38:11]

Hey guys dont be that hard on yourselfs it was our time to be champs,three finals not won so what at least you where there,before the rwc even the aussies thought u guys ought to be easy and we all know what happened,u guys need to be thankfull u dont have the politics in rugby we do,congrats on making the final .bokke bo!

[Khalid 22 Oct 2007 10:56:11]

Sir
The problem with our sporting success is I’m afraid two fold:
(1) Teams do not play as a team
(2) The desire to win

Taking number one into account, many a club celebrity wants to be the one who either gets the Try or even sinks the ball behind the net (in the case of rugby football) whereas other such sports like tennis, cricket or even rowing bring many a problematic encounter.
Marketing on the other hand, whereby many a sporting professional body says one thing, does another and gets a result that is neither here or there.
What the nation of sports needs to understand is this simple rule. When playing at club level, then opponents are just that opponents, when playing for your national side, it is not your club opponents who are the opponents, but the side who are not on your side.
Not only will this likkle formula provide a sense of direction, but stop many a national side from “Walking Away” from “Craig David”

[Julie,Broadstairs 22 Oct 2007 10:42:21]

In the day and age of non competative sports, being played in schools, it is the taking part, that matters, yes I was gutted on Saturday night and yet again when I saw Lewis fail to win the Grand Prix, but all their efforts were not in vain, hopefully the English Ruby team and Lewis know that they have done us proud. They will be back and hopefully Lewis can win next year.

[alex aloisio malta 22 Oct 2007 10:19:09]

black weekend for england. three finals three disapontments. rugby f1 and snooker.look at the bright side, no other nation had three finalist at the same weekend .